Ekla Chalo Re

 

My answer to all those who think that the majority view can't be wrong, and it is better to keep smiling sportingly when they throw stones at you.

courtesy Guru Rabindranath Tagore

 Original Bengali Poem

Jodi Tor Dak Soone Keu Na Asse
Tobe Ekla Chalo re
Ekla Chalo Ekla Chalo Ekla Chalore

Jodi Keu Katha Na Kai Ore Ore O Abhaga
Jodi Sabai Thake Mukh Firae Sabai Kare Bhay
Tabe Paran Khule
O Tui Mukh Fute Tor Maner Katha Ekla Balo re

Jodi Sabai Fire Jai Ore Ore O Abhaga
Jodi Gahan Pathe Jabar Kale Keu Feere Na Chay
Tobe Pather Kanta
O Tui Rakta Makha Charan Tale Ekla Dalo re

Jodi Alo Na Dhare Ore Ore O Abhaga
Jodi Jharr Badale Andhar Rate Duar Deay Ghare
Tobe Bajranale
Apaan Buker Panjar Jaliey Nieye Ekla Jalo re

English Translation

If they answer not to thy call walk alone,

Walk alone, thy walk alone,

If they are afraid and cower mutely facing the wall,

O thou of evil luck,
open thy mind and speak out alone.

If they turn away, and desert you when crossing the wilderness,
O thou of evil luck,
trample the thorns under thy tread,
and along the blood-lined track travel alone.

If they do not hold up the light when the night is troubled with storm,

O thou of evil luck,
with the thunder flame of pain

ignite thy own heart and let it burn alone.

posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:40 AM

Perpetration of prejudices - an objective study

I came across a paper by a Bosnian researcher on Ethnic jokes; Mr.Srdjan Vucetic, which done in the context of Bosnians, is quite analogic to the Sardar jokes. Also, much has been said on these 'stupidity' jokes by other philosophers and researchers. What emerges through their thesis is the belief that stereotypical intergroup jokes are “cultural signifiers” (Duara 1996: 165) or even invented traditions, which act to “socialize or inculcate beliefs, values, or behaviors” (Hobsbawm 1983: 9).

When you joke about Sikhs, you pretend to be referring to an objective thing, as if the person behind that joke is an inanimate object. But in joking, you socially construct and sustain relationships with them. According to Apte, who builds on Durkheim’s concept of collective representations, jokes “help define and redefine the boundaries of socially differentiated groups” and demarcating “us” from “them” (1985: 55).

And with the construction of difference comes the construction of the “other”, and hence, of hierarchy and exclusion (Berger and Luckmann 1996, Connolly 2002). Intergroup humor divides the social and political world into in-groups and out-groups, which by itself is an act deeply embedded in power relations (gender, centre vs. periphery, class).

Stereotypes (e.g. Marvadis are stingy, Sikhs are stupid, etc.) serve as boundary-builders and, as such, are an important basis for the construction of social identities and corresponding social relations. Of course, there are other narratives responsible for proliferating social stereotypes, such as newspapers, school textbooks, talk shows, commercials, and every-day conversations. The point is that by disseminating stereotypes jokes “contribute materially to the formation and perpetration of deep-seated prejudices” (Dundes 1987: 115). In this way, jokes also serve certain interests more than others.

 According to Davies (1990: 40, 2002: 8), jokes in which the object or the butt of the joke turns out to be primitive or stupid are the most common type. Jokes such as these lampoon the follies and failures in “others” not only in order to differentiate them from the self (i.e. the narrator) but also to impart values that the self uses to define his/her own group (1990: 7). The butt of the joke is thus habitually perceived as provincial, rural, backward, pre-modern, that is in contrast to the narrator who considers himself central, urban, progressive and modern (1990: 82-3).

posted on Wednesday,

The arguement continues

The responses received by me in the comments, mainly fall under four categories, as mentioned below. Thanks for your patience with me, guys and gals; and my apologies for not replying individually to all. My response to the posts are:

1. POINT AGREED AND NOTED 

I can only thank you people for understanding our point of view; and taking the posts in the right spirit. I dont want to raise muck, I just want to convey to people a different version of the 'fun'. The first step is taken, if we STOP forwarding and reciting such jokes. Charity begins at home, righto?

2. SIKHS LIKE ME ARE NOT SPORTING ENOUGH 

I have been sporting enough to the extent that I have lived through these jokes for over 30 years now. But, with the problem only increasing due to the chain SMS's, emails, internet sites; I thought that I needed to say something. And people who compare the Sikh joke problem, to those on Malyalis, Bengalis, etc. Guys (and gals)!! I am sure that your mobile might be getting at least 100 Sardar jokes for one joke on the other communities. Is'nt the ratio skewed too much against the Sikhs?. I could have been sporting if I listened to such jokes once in a while; but what do you expect us Sikhs to do if we get such jokes on our mobile in the midst of our prayers!.. And seriously; to a selfish motive which I feel deeply about; I dont want my child to come home crying, because I happen to live outside the Punjab.

3. I AM MAKING A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLEHILL

I wish this is true. With the positive response to my posts, I seroiusly think and HOPE that this comment is true.. Perhaps, when I realise this fully, I'll remove the posts..

4. 'MERE BARAH BAJE HUE HAIN

There's a seperate post on this topic.

posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 12:25 AM

Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point

 

An article appeared in a National Newspaper, recently. The article as well as my counter point on it, below

THE POINT

Veer Ka Teer

Wagging tongue, waging war

by Vir Sanghvi

February 27, 2005 - Hindustan Times

Have you heard a good sardarji joke recently? Has something about Santa and Banta brought a smile to your lips? Perhaps you have chuckled at a sardarji joke in Khushwant Singh’s column.

If so, beware. You might have caused offence to the Sikh quom. Millions of sardarjis might have been mortally offended by your laughter. You could well have struck a blow against the minorities.

Oh yes, I am being entirely serious.

Take the case of the film Shabd. I haven’t seen the movie — and judging by the box-office receipts, neither have most of you — but I gather that there is a scene that goes something like this: Zayed Khan is trying to cheer Aishwarya Rai up.

He decides to tell her a sardarji joke. He gets as far as saying, “There was a sardarji,” when Aishwarya dissolves into helpless giggles. He never gets to complete the joke. < Fair enough, you say. We’ve all told sardarji jokes at some time or the other. And as for Ash’s giggles, these are of no great consequence either. Aishwarya giggles incessantly, no matter whether you ask her what the time is or tell her a joke.

But no, this seemingly innocuous scene has now become the subject of a controversy. Angry Sikhs stormed the offices of Pritish Nandy Communications who made the film. There were demands that the scene be deleted forthwith.

The film was anti-Sikh, it was claimed. The pride of the Sikh quom had been hurt. The whole thing was an attack on the minorities.

The moral of the story is: don’t tell sardarji jokes because some sardarjis can’t take a joke.

But why single out the Sikhs? Let’s take the example of India’s Christians. Way back in the 1970s, Jesus Christ Superstar, the Tim Rice — Andrew Lloyd Weber musical was turned into a Hollywood film.

By the time the movie was imported into India, Jesus Christ Superstar was already well-known as the hit play that had rocked Broadway. It had even been staged in Bombay by Alyque Padamsee.

So you would expect Christians to welcome the filmed version of a musical that had been such a success in the Christian world and which venerated the life of the messiah.

Wrong!

When it was time to censor the film, Christian groups objected. The film was anti-Christian, they declared. It did not show enough respect to Jesus Christ. It should be banned.

To its eternal shame, the Censor Board refused to certify Jesus Christ Superstar and the film was never shown in India.

It did not matter that no Christian country banned it. It did not matter that nobody of consequence anywhere in the Christian world regarded the movie as being anti-Christian. And it did not matter that the play on which the film was based had already been staged in India.

A minority said that its religion was being attacked. And this was enough to have the film banned.

Let’s take a more recent example. The Censor Board has certified a Hindi film called Sins. According to newspaper accounts of its plot, the movie features a priest who does some unpriestly things including indulging in the pleasures of the flesh.

Christian groups are on the warpath once again. Never mind the censors, they say. Sins is anti-Christian. How dare the film-maker depict a priest as being all too human? This is an insult to India’s minorities. Ban the movie, they scream, otherwise Christians will be offended.

The Censor Board held firm; at least one court has rejected a Christian petition seeking to have the film banned, and Sins was released last week.

But still, the campaign continues. And now, the protesters have found a new kind of legitimacy. The Minorities Commission has got in on the act. There is a danger, it suggests, that a religious minority might be offended. Perhaps the authorities should re-examine the issue and consider censoring or banning the film to avoid causing hurt to India’s Christians.

There are several issues at stake here. One of these is the role of the Minorities Commission. Readers with relatively long memories will recall that this current, ludicrous avatar of the Commission consists of a Chairman and members who did not utter one word of condemnation against Narendra Modi when Muslims were being massacred on the street of Gujarat. (It was left to the National Human Rights Commission to take on the mass murderer and to try and stop the genocide.)

Having failed to stand up for the minorities when it really mattered, this pathetic body is now poking its nose into Hindi cinema on behalf of the forces of intolerance while claiming to fight for minority rights.

More important is the question of whether Indians have a sense of humour. Whatever else you may say about the mood of the country today, it is clearly not anti-Sikh. We have our first Sikh Prime Minister and he is probably among the two or three most respected politicians in the country today, admired even by those who did not vote for his party.

The sardarji joke, like all ethnic humour, is part of a good-natured Indian tradition and hardly an example of any kind of anti-minority felling.

Sikhs themselves often tell the best sardarji jokes — Khushwant Singh’s column is a good example — and one indication that India’s Sikh minority had regained its confidence after the traumas of the 1980s (Bluestar, the Delhi massacres, etc) was when Sikhs began telling sardarji jokes again.

For anybody to claim that a sardarji joke in a Hindi movie is an insult to Sikhs is plain silly. The protestors against Shabd should learn to develop a sense of humour.

As for Sins, are there no dodgy Christian priests? Are Christian holy men deserving of a special reverence in Hindi cinema?

Let’s look at the Christian world where dodgy priests crop up frequently in cinema and popular fiction. The biggest bestseller of this decade, for instance, The Da Vinci Code, is dedicated to the proposition that the entire Christian church is based on a distortion of the historical Jesus. But no developed Christian country has banned the book and it will soon be turned into a movie with Tom Hanks.

So why should Christians claim rights in India that they do not have even in countries such as England where Christianity is the state religion? Do they think that they are entitled to some special consideration only because they are a minority?

And finally, the key question: When is it proper to abridge the right to free speech in a liberal democracy?

In India, we seem to have tacitly accepted the foolish and dangerous principle that free speech can be sacrificed anytime somebody claims that he is offended.

But the whole point of the right to free speech is that it gives us the right to offend. Each time I criticise the government (or this week, the Minorities Commission) in this column, I know that I will offend somebody.

All criticism is, by definition, offensive to its targets. So, take away the right to offend and you castrate the right to free speech and rob it of all meaning. If I were to only write goody-goody things that offended nobody, then I wouldn’t need the right to free speech.

And yet, all too often, we miss the point and reach for the censor’s pencil, arguing that such and such individual will be offended or that such and such community will be hurt. In the process, we seriously diminish the principle of free speech.

Let’s take the case of Shabd. The obvious thing to do is to tell any Sikh who finds sardarji jokes offensive not to go and see the film. Just because some Sikh is offended by a sardarji joke, it does not follow that the rest of us lose the right to enjoy the joke.

So it is with Sins and the worldly priest. If some Christians are traumatised by the thought that there might be some dodgy priests, then they should stay at home, avoid seeing the film and cling to their naivety. They have no right to deny me the opportunity to see the film.

Ultimately, our right to freedom of expression and our right to free access to books, movies and newspapers is far, far greater than the right of sensitive Sikhs not to be hurt by sardarji jokes or of naïve Christians to deny that there may be dodgy priests. Start suspending the principle of freedom of speech to protect people’s illusions and you end up destroying the very basis of the liberal society.

The examples I have chosen are simple and self-evident. But the issue can get more complex. Should Deepa Mehta’s Water have been made even if showed the shameful way in which Hindus treat widows? Should the Satanic Verses have been published even if Muslims were so offended that they threatened to riot?

In every case, I would argue: yes. If Hindus treat widows badly, then let’s not be scared of letting this be shown on screen. If Muslims are offended by The Satanic Verses, then they should refrain from reading the book. Censorship is not the answer.

All truth has the power to offend. Take away the offence and you end up suppressing the truth

COUNTER POINT

Kulveer bina Teer

I am restricting my counter point to the Sikh part of the debate; and dont wish to get into an argument on behalf of other issues raised in the article.

1. "All truth has the power to offend. Take away the offence and you end up suppressing the truth.".... So, does he mean to say that it is TRUE that Sikhs are Morons and Jokers as portrayed in the 'truthful jokes'. I hope he understands what he means to say.
2. IF one would agree to his thesis about Sikh jokes being correct because they are a 'part of our good natured tradition' , why dont we agree with all old traditions - The Sati (Widow suicide), Dowry, Female infanticide etc. If all ancient and historical traditions are adhered to, we might as well return to the 'stone age'
3. Also, about the advise that Sikhs who cant take a joke must learn to ignore such jokes, in order to honour the 'right to freedom of speec'. Tell that to a five year old child who comes home crying due to this “Good Natured Tradition“. (I cant help but repeat this point, again and again...)
4. He says - All criticism is, by definition, offensive to its targets. - Does this imply that Sikh jokes are a valid 'criticism' of that community.

If Vir Sanghvi, the editor of THE 'Hindustan Times” seriously believes in what he has written up; about the Sardarji jokes being a reflection of the truth, and a valid criticism of the 'targets' (in this case the Sikhs); then whatever I write here should not be making any difference. A readership of 10,000 (more or less) on this blog against a readership of 1 million (or more! for Hindustan Times). Do we stand a chance here??

I believe we do!!. Because Truth is on our side.. You only reach your destination if you take the first step..

posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 5:24 PM

Comments

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 1/26/2006 9:12 PM Kulveer Singh

Dear Amardeep, 

I agree with most of what you say about Vir Sanghvi's limited aptitude for empathy. However, paining all Hindus with the same brush wont be correct. Just go through the comments on this blog, wherein almost all people have shown an understanding of our concerns when we point it out to them. 

Regards Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 1/26/2006 1:28 AM AMARDEEP

people like vir sanghvi who have burning ass against minorities in general and sikhs in particular have unfortunately become editors of national dailies who love to black mail whole society in the name of free press. 

can their be any joke on majority comunity in hindi films? NO. just because of simple reason that producers do not have guts to say any thing about great hindus. 

sanghvi targets the present chairman of national comission for minorities who happens to be a sikh intentinally which shows he has something against sikhs. 

sanghvi writes "Just because some Sikh is offended by a sardarji joke, it does not follow that the rest of us lose the right to enjoy the joke" implies
"Just because some hindu is offended by a comment on their caste, it does not follow that the rest of us lose the right to enjoy the comment"
Mr.sanghvi these very things are sowing the seeds of division of india in future.
If jokes on sikhs is justified then terrorism by muslims and sikhs is also justified. 

sanghvi writes "We have our first Sikh Prime Minister and he is probably among the two or three most respected politicians in the country today, admired even by those who did not vote for his party" 

now we all know that 1st sikh PM of india is not elected but a chosen one he is not a politition but a bureaucrat, chosen as a prime minister by person of italian origon and not by indian masses.
majority of india (hindus) dont have guts to choose a person from minority as a PM, a country where democracy is limited to caste and religion can not elect a person from minority as a PM. this is what to say about mood of country today.
sanghvi misleads in his artical as he is very clever but not intelligent as he might thinks of himself. 

Hindustan times is one of the worst news papers in the country carring more of masala news than real informative stuff.sanghvi writes these types of articals to increase circulation of his paper by entertaining majority community of india as he knows our country is already divided on the basis of religion.
i am definately offended by reading his article as he will be, by reading my comments on him and his news paper. Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Poin 8/18/2005 10:44 AM Kulveer Singh

I get your perspective on Vir Sanghvi's article; because the explanations you give for his quotes are a reflection of your 'world view'. But again, read that article again. 

Sanghvi has clearly (CLEARLY) tried to say that Sardar Jokes are a reflection of the 'truth' which needs to be propagated by the Free Press, even if it hurts a few sensitive souls like me. 

I have not been writing about me as a five year old; I have been trying to protect our children from the alienation they would feel as they grow up. The basic Title of my Blog - The Joke is on us, but please save our children their tears. 

Kaushik, this is a sensitive topic, and I hope you dont take it as just a sentimental outburst. This is NOT a sentimental outburst, but has been started as a long lone journey, trying to make a difference to the society we live in. Refer to the qualitative study of 'ethnic jokes' vis a vis Sardarji jokes on my post at http://o3.indiatimes.com/sardarji/archive/2005/07/06/165594.aspx . I have done an extensive study on this, but I think that it is beyond the undrestanding of most people, so I have not mentioned it on my blog. 

Sardarji jokes are UNLIKE other such ethnic jokes; primarily because they are the only one that are targeted at a religious community. THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM, TRUST ME, ASK ANY SIKH PARENT.. 

I try not to be personal, and so for your personal views about me; well I chose not to reply to those. Perhaps, if you can write to my email at kulveer@india.com; I could! Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 8/18/2005 1:34 AM Kaushik

Kulveer, I think you are informative and strong on content on the one hand but oversentimental on the other.
I think you should read Sanghvi's article all over again and see how you've misunderstood what he's saying.
1. "All truth has the power to offend. Take away the offence and you end up suppressing the truth.".... So, does he mean to say that it is TRUE that Sikhs are Morons and Jokers as portrayed in the 'truthful jokes'. I hope he understands what he means to say.
-
Well, sanghvi has only one point in this article. That of the nation bowing to sentimentalists. He uses the sardar joke as one point to prove this. Another point he uses is that of truth as in salman Rishdie's book. Another point is about christian priests.
You are confusing the first point with the others. 

2. IF one would agree to his thesis about Sikh jokes being correct because they are a 'part of our good natured tradition' , why dont we agree with all old traditions - The Sati (Widow suicide), Dowry, Female infanticide etc. If all ancient and historical traditions are adhered to, we might as well return to the 'stone age'
-
So, you mean that a sikh joke is equal to Sati??? Please try and undestand what you are trying to say. I think some people like you are overreacting to this silly issue. This is basically a non-issue that does not deserve so many comments. We all respect sikhs for thieir spirit. One part of it is that they make jokes on themselves. Besides, this is not exactly an ancient tradition and not everything about ancient India was bad. I think you are taking things too far. I don't think sikhs became a prosperous community by being so sissy. I agree with funny deol's comment on this. There are many kinds of sardars - some take and make jokes, some only take jokes and some like you are averse to that as well. But somewhere down the line, you are taking things too personally. 

3. Also, about the advise that Sikhs who cant take a joke must learn to ignore such jokes, in order to honour the 'right to freedom of speec'. Tell that to a five year old child who comes home crying due to this “Good Natured Tradition“. (I cant help but repeat this point, again and again...)
He says - All criticism is, by definition, offensive to its targets. - Does this imply that Sikh jokes are a valid 'criticism' of that community.
-
Sikh jokes are not a criticism, pal, and that is where you are going wrong. You are taking things too seriously. Children joking about someone perceived to be different is a worldwide phenomenon. Sikhs are not absolved of this in, either. Why are there annual cassettes about biharis in punjab, then - and these are not children, mind you. Children teasing you was sad, indeed. But Grow Up. You are not 5 years old any more. And chances are those same children will not tease you any more, unless you are teased. The teased are teased all the more - golden rule alll over the world.
I believe Sanghvi is right here that those who have personal problems with an interpretation or depictin of one's community need not follow that interpretation or depiction (otherwise, we will never be able to make any films with any negative characters). In fact, I don't understand why you brought sikh jokes under this point at all. Is it THAT serious? If it is, then tell your folks to stop making fun of madrasis, biharis, bengalis, etc. Well, you call us Biharis 'bhayyas' right, which is a derogatory term for you (Sikhs don't like being called bhayyas). Bhayya means 'elder brother' in our parts an it is a respectful salutation. What are you doing to end this 'horror story'?
.
And I didn't think funny deol has a sick mind. I think you need a sense of humour, pal. Get fresh. Not personal. If you keep sobbing, you will forever remain in that 5-year shell. Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Poin 7/8/2005 11:14 AM Kulveer

Dear Funny Deol 

Some more Pakistani links for your enlightenment. I am sure you will like the jokes on this one 

http://www.neopakistan.com/entertainment/jokes/sardarji1.asp Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Poin 7/8/2005 11:06 AM Kulveer

Dear Funny Deol, (why hide your name in anonymity), finally you speak something original; :)... 

Two wrongs do not make a right. We can not justify the Sardar jokes on the plea that this is a general phenomenon, and other communities are also the butt of such jokes. Jokes across ethnicities are not the same as a joke on religions; and also Sardar jokes outnumber other such jokes by a substantial margin. So, while teasing anybody for a Tilak is bad, so is it to tease anybody with a Turban. 

There is currently an SMS going on amongst Sardars, advising all Sardars to replace the word Sardarji, by Lalaji, or Panditji, before forwarding the jokes. I find it pathetic. I have never done it. And I never will. I rather replace the generic terms by a more specific Santa or Banta or Johnny or whatever. 

It is not about my experience as a Kid, it is about the experience of all Sikh kids across the country. I am a parent now of a four year old kid now, and much water has blown over the bridge since I was a kid. But things are still the same. Ask any sikh parent outside the Punjab and Delhi. He will tell the same story. 

So, now Funny Deol, you are now a grown up, you are not a kid anymore; and when you say such jokes on Sardars, Pandits, Pathans or whatever, you must also be saying them in presence of immature kids who dont have your 'secular' credentials to understand that they dont mean. And you are sowing the seeds of this 'culture' young. Children can be cruel with each other, they are not bound by the mores of the society. If they are told by their parents that Sardars are morons, they will believe it, and will behave accordingly with the lone Sardar in their class. It all flows down from the parents. 

What do you say, when somebody in your office that cant argue with you just say that "Sardarji, Barah Baje hue hain, thodi der baad baat karenge!" You can see examples of this kind on this very blog. Or when you are standing with your father at a ceremony, and an unknown person comes and says to your father - "kya baat hai, 5 aadmi or ek sardar.." 

But since you are such a persistant joke-er, I would like to increase your repertoire of Sardarji jokes, through some Pakistani sites, where your Sardar brothers are being laughed at: come on give them some more ideas as well, send them some high quality Sardarji jokes. 

http://www.shabbir.com/pak/humor/jokes.html
http://forums.understanding-islam.org/community/archive/index.php?t-572.html 

And buddy, never mind my sentiments; I am cool, and not at all sentimental about this. And I am aware of the fact that Sikhs like Khushwant Singh tell the best Sardar jokes. But then he is one of the 'classes' and doesnt have to directly interact with the masses. 

And if you think I am making a mountain out of a molehill, I know that is a fact, because that is my intention. Nobody focusses on a molehill till it becomes a mountain. The molehill takes many forms, if not set right, the bombs onthe movie was one example (and no, I dont approve of the bombs); and then it takes the form of seperatism, terrorism and results in the killing of a Prime minister.Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 7/7/2005 5:51 PM Funny Deol

Oye Kulveer Ji, 

I do not believe that sardarji jokes are a Racial generalization of the community at all.The fact is that it can go for any community and it does happen .You seem to be making a point that it is only the sikh ommunity which is the butt of all the jokes in India which is absolutely false as in any joke site you will find jokes on Tamilians (Madrasis), bengalis,Marwaris,sindhis,gujjus, maharashtrians.I have seen many sardars including some of my own sardar friends who get Irritated with sardar jokes but laugh their heart out when I send the same jokes via SMS to them replacing the SARDAR with a Bihari Or a Pathan etc and also make community jokes themselves.There are so many of your own community , believe me , who actually enjoy sardar jokes a lot .Take Khushwant singh for example.If u get a chance do please read his article on the Jobole so nihal film in Outlook Mag.Most of These jokes which go around in sms and websites are just harmless fun equally made and enjoyed by ALL commmunities and it is not at all like all everybody gangs up to tease or irritatate any particular community and This is not racism at all! Regarding your unfortunate experiences as a child .Kids teasing someone who differs somewhat in appearance in not uncommon anywhere and as they grow up and understand it stops .And again let me sress that it can happen to any community .In my class it was in fact the sardar kids in Chandigarh who used to tease the south indians for their Tilaks and white powders on their foreheads ans their funny english accents! Mate , its not a one sided senti affair after all! So my advice to u would be take things in the right spirit and stop making mountains out of molehills! Enjoy jokes and Bolo tararara! Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Poin 7/7/2005 2:04 PM Kulveer Singh

Dear Not so Funny, and Not at all Deol, 

Your latest joke, though somewhat charitable to Sardars, is still a racial generalisation and more-over is a very old joke too, heard by me when I was in class one. Some original ideas! pleez! 

No gussa from me buddy; infact a sense of surprise at the total and absolute lack of empathy in your mind to a point of view that might not be entirely wrong. Racial generalisation of any sort is not entirely the mature thing to do. 

I have met so many people in my life, who think they are being funny by laughing at the expense of Sardars. But believe me, it is'nt funny for a child who gets his hair pulled in school, because of this culture (or lack of culture!). I hope you have read through the first and second posts of mine. 

About war, enemy soldiers are said to have deserted their trenches in fear, when the Sikh battle-cry of "Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal" rang out..., Sikhs didnt even have to resort to trickery to fool them. 

I'll write a detailed post on this history, with facts, as soon as I get the time. Just stay tuned to this blog. Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 7/7/2005 12:52 PM Funny Deol

Oye sardarji, 

Gussa kyun karte ho? chalo i ll put this one.This one is definitely for sardarji smartness 

Sardar at his best
Scene: Trench warfare on Pakistan border, Sikh regiment on one side.
Kartar Singh gets a bright idea, shouts, "Oye Abdul!"
A guy gets up from other trench, "Kya hai be"
Kartar Singh shoots!! BANG. The guy is shot dead! 

Kartar Singh shouts again, "Oye Karim"
2 guys stand up, "Kya hai saala"
BANG BANG both khalaas and gone 

Kartar Singh shouts again,"Oye Mustafa!"
2 more, BANG-BANG! dono khalaas! 

Pakis get worried, they think: Saala Sardarji log, when did they get so smart? They decide to try the trick themselves. 

"Abe Gurdev Singh"
silence
"Oye Gurdev Singh!!"
silence 

"O bhai, Gurdev Singh!" 

This time some one says, "Gurdev Singh ko kaun bula raha hai re?" 

Paki gets up, "Main" 

BANG! He goes!
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# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Poin 7/7/2005 10:11 AM Kulveer Singh

Signs of a Sardar - Funny Deol!.... I pity your state of mind, to have pasted these sick jokes on this forum. Grow up man!! 

The least that you could have done was to invent some good jokes on your own rather than cutting and pasting some 'stale jokes', here.. I am letting them remain on my page, as a sign of the maturity (or immaturity) of people roaming this blog-site. I expect people to put some original ideas here. If your 'brain' cant even write a few original lines, you dont deserve to blog. Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 7/6/2005 8:31 PM Funny Deol

Sign of a Sardar 

You should be sure the person is Sardar when he puts lipstick on the forehead because he wants to makeup his mind.
gets stabbed in a shoot-out. sends a fax with a postage stamp on it. tries to drown a fish in waters.
thinks socialism means partying. trips over a cordless phone.
takes a ruler to bed to see how long he slept.
At the bottom of the application where it says "Sign Here" he puts "Sagittarius.
" studies for a blood test and fails. sells the car for gas money. misses the 44 bus, and takes the 22 twice instead.
drives to the airport and sees a sign that said,
"Airport left", he turns around and goes home. gets locked in Furniture Shop and sleeps on the floor. 

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# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 7/6/2005 8:28 PM Funny deol

One day two sardars met and started chatting. The main topic of the conversation was about how others view sardars.
They felt that sardars are being ridiculed too much by others.
They wanted to teach others a good lesson. Soon they had a plan for that.
Said one Sardar to the other, "We two will go to beach tomorrow morning.
We should keep on staring at the sea. People in anxiety will crowd behind us
but we should not turn to see them.
Finally in the night or so we will turn and say "Hey Fools! What you think of sardars?".
That will be a good lesson. What do you feel?".
The other one was simply overwhelmed.
He said "that's really great!" and hugged him.
Next day the two sardars went to the beach and did according to the plan.
Soon they heard murmuring behind them and were happy.
Time passed by and the noise from behind was increasing more.
The two smiled at each other but didn't turn.
It became late night and the sardars decided to turn to see the crowd.
The sardars were shocked not because the crowd was more than expected
BUT ALL IN THE CROWD WERE SARDARS!!! Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 6/24/2005 10:32 PM Tanveer

I enjoy sardar jokes. I have been reading/listening to these jokes for many years. But I don't see them as a reflection of the sikh community. The 'sardar' in the sardar joke can be any bengali, madrasi, gujju, mallu, sheikh.
Though I belive that banning sardar jokes will be a stupid thing to do, I cannot agree the way Vir has written the article specially 'All truth has the power to offend. Take away the offence and you end up suppressing the truth'. What has sardar jokes got to do with truth!!!!
Though i feel some people are over reacting to the sardar joke in the movies, I also feel telling a sardar joke in a movie is not a good idea. Movie is a public display and it would be wise to keep sardar jokes to private audience, friends who don't mind the jokes. Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 5/30/2005 4:35 PM samir

Kulveer veere ki gal hogayee bha tu yaar bada naraaz hogaya ain... Dnt worry man jede mazaaak udaaunde aaa unaaa ch aap hi koi khot aaaa. 

Main tainu paehla bhi kya si mere saamne jaddon koi gursikh de baare galt gal kardda hai main uddi dhui ch apni baah dedinaa haaan.... 

Par veere main kaee baar sochddaaa kineyaan naal lade bandaa
eh jedi hindustan di dharti aa badi nashukar na garaz dharti aaa.
aitthe taan bande apni maan dhi nu becch dinde aaa paise yaan layeee
eeh sikhaan de naal ki mukaabla karange... 

i hope tainu punjabi aundiaaa nahin taan ill translate my message in english.... Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 5/30/2005 12:43 PM ashish

Vir Singhvi ka dimaag kharab ho gaya hai. Serious ilaaj karana padega Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 5/29/2005 1:44 AM abhijit

hey this is something i came across from the library............well......you can add some more to this if you feel i am going wrong......
"Sikhs are those who took up swords to protect the society.ages back when mughals had gone up in the attrocities in INDIA the first guru(sorry i do not remember his name)had called on all the Hindu families to send there every fifth child under his camp.......so that they build there own army and protect the society.so later, to identify themselves differently they started growing there hair and started wearing turban.........and later they emerged as Sikh community......so initially........Sikhs are subdivision of Hindus like jains...........well....if i have left out something do correct me as corrections are always welcome..........ALL The BEST! Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war (Vir Sanghvi). Point and Counter Point 5/29/2005 1:36 AM abhijit

hey good one dude...............especially for the 12'0 clock information which you shared with us......well...........thanks a lot.......and yes.........i have never shared a joke on any sardarji or any other community......i believer people making fun of others are the one who make fun of themselves.............so have a nice time and thankyou....for information....... Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war. Point and Counter Point 5/28/2005 9:31 PM Kulveer

Thanks Sameer, 

I think you have raises a new and valid point about the Sikh Women.... if this is the cause of the troubles then it might as well go on for another thousand years.. :) Remove Comment

# re: Wagging tongue, waging war. Point and Counter Point 5/28/2005 5:46 PM Sameer

Thogh i also have shared the moments enjoying jokes on sikhs but that doesn'tmean i respect them less.In fact i respect them more than i respect my community.And this is for their bravery,their contribution towards the society, and because of their very kind and jovial nature.
I was once discussing with my friends about the poverty in india.At that time we also discussed about the beggars.We then found out taht on the roads of our cities you can find beggers from any community but from the sikh community.You will never see a sikh begging !!
We realized at that point that sikhs are very kind people who have a lot of self respect, who don't indulge in bad activities. 

We also joked at taht time that people who made fun of sikhs are those people who are jealous of them.As sikh men are the most luckiest on t his planet as they get the chance to marry the most beautiful girls of this world. During al these discussion one of my sikh friend was also with us.
So i just want to say people these days don't respect those who are kind and nice in behaviour.But the number of such people are very less and with your efforts they will also understand this one day. 

Sardarjis jokes - the usual excuse to laugh at Sardars

I quote a comment received on one of my earlier posts; that is representative of the supposedly harmless nature of the presumptions that people have about Sardarjis; and the justification offered by them for propagating Sardarji jokes. I quote that comment below:

re: PRESUMPTION - Sardarji jokes are harmless fun. By Adam

 I will totally agree that making Sikh jokes is pathetic and a racist thing to do; I would certainly not like it done to my faith, or my community. I myself used to be a big Sardarji joke-teller, but I have completely stopped now (due to the realization that it is RACIST). 

But, if I may, I would like to offer an explanation as to why I think these jokes are so popular.

All the non-Sikhs (including myself) that I know that have come across a grown Sardarji individual say that there have been at least a few occassions where the Sardarji has something really immature or childish. I am not branding Sardarjis as being stupid, but once that notion exists the jokes will spread; and when the notion is reaffirmed by people's everyday encounters with Sardarjis, that is EXACTLY what makes the Sardarji jokes so popular. Because people laugh and go "its TRUE, its TRUE!" regardless of how big of a misconception it is.

Well, as Adam would have us believe; all (or most of the) Sardarjis are childish and immature; and hence the popularity of the jokes is derived from this.

I give him the benefit of the doubt as to his good intentions; but that doesnt take away from the fact that this is precisely the issue that is ingrained in the Indian psyche. I have come across hundreds of 'non-sikhs' who have been childish and immature on a daily basis. This is 'Human Nature'; the fact that a child lives inside all of us even as we grow up to be adults. It seems pathetic to argue this point; the fact that immature and childish people are spread out quite evenly amongst all communities; even Adam’s.

Come to think of it; Adam would have us believe that “Eve” was a Sardarni to have eaten the apple. :)

posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:39 PM

The history of "Barah Baj Gaye"

Well, this brings me to most often repeated snide remark against the Sikhs. BARAH BAJ GAYE.. (for the un-initiated, who might be reading this post, it means, "It is twelve of clock") a remark that intends to imply that Sardars go into a 'mad' mood at twelve o' clock.

Every Sikh has been at the receiving end of this remark quite often. But do the reciters of the story know the truth behind it?

NOW THE STORY

During 17th Century when Hindustan was ruled by Mughals all the people were humiliated and were treated like animal. Mughals treated the Hindu women as there own property and were forcing all Hindus to accept Islam and even used to kill the people if they were refusing to accept.

That time our Ninth Guru Sri Guru Teg Bhadarji who came forward, in request of some Kashmir Pandits to fight against all these cruel activities. Guruji told the Mughal emperor if he could succeed in converting him to Islam all the Hindus would accept the same but if he failed, he should stop all those activities . The Mughal emperor happily agreed to that but even after lots of torture to Guruji and his fellow members he failed to convert him to Islam and Guruji along with his other four fellow members who were also tortured for the same sacrificed their lives in Chandni Chowk. Since the Mughals were unable to convert them to Islam they were assassinated.  Tthus Guruji sacrificed his life for Protection of Hindu religion. Can anybody lay his life that too for protection of some other religion. This is the reason he is still remembered has Hind Ki Chaddar . For sake of whom he had sacrificed his life, none of the them came forward to lift his body with a fear that they would also be assassinated .

Seeing this incident our 10th Guruji, Sri Guru Gobind Singhji (Son of Guru Teg Bahadarji) made a resolution that he would make such a human who would not be able to hide himself and could be easily located in thousands, THE SIKH.  

At the start Sikhs were very less in numbers even though they were fighting against the Mughals emperors. At that time Nadir Shah raided Delhi in the year 1739 and looted Hindustan and was carrying lot of Hindustan treasures and nearly 2200 Hindu women along with him. The news spread like a fire and was heard by Sardar Jassa Singh who was the Commander of the Sikh army at that time . He decided to attack Nadir Shah's Khafila on the same midnight. He did so and rescued all the Hindu women and they were safely sent to their homes. It didn't happen only once but thereafter whenever any Abdaalis or Iranis had looted Hindustan and were trying to carry out treasures and Hindu women along with them for selling them in Abdal markets, the Sikh army quite few in numbers but were bravehearted attacked them in the midnight,12 O'clock and rescued women.

After that time when there occurred a similar incidence people started to contact the Sikh army for their help and Sikhs used to attack the raider's at Midnight, 12 O'clock. It continued and became a fame that at midnight nearly at 12 O'clock it is very difficult to fight against Sikhs as the Sikhs get some Extra Power to save Religion, Nation and Humanity. Nobody can fight and win against them at midnight, this continues till now. Nowadays these smart people and some Sikh enemies who are afraid of Sikhs, have spread these words that at 12 O'clock the Sikhs goe out of their sense.

With 'guerilla' tactics, they continued to attack the Muslim camps and liberated the Hindu women from the clutches. The usual time of such attacks was either at noon, or midnight. The attacks were so ferocious, that the Muslims began dreading the expected attacks of the Sikhs at 12 o' clock, midnight or noon.

It was these people, the marauders, who coined the phrase that "Sardaron ke barah baj gaye".

And Now, THE IRONY; the descendents of the rescued people are making fun of the rescuers!!!!!

I think any person who repeats this sentence against the Sikhs is making fun of the meekness of his own lineage.

posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 12:12 PM

Comments

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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/21/2006 10:00 PM jasbeer singh

wel mere hindu bhaio aur baheno "WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KEE FATEH" I WANNA TEL ONE THING TO U ALL ;jis DHARAM ne hindu DHARAM ki raksha ki jiske wajah se HINDUSTAN ka WAJUD hain OO jinhone aap ki MAA BAHEN ki RAKSHA ke ALWAYZ SARBAT ka BHALA chaha kya aap ko unka MAZAK karna chaiye & jahan tak BARAH BAJNE KA SAWAL HAIN hum to hus parte hain BECOZ hame lagta hain koi help maang raha hain to isme aap apna mazak karte ho HUMARA naihn
rohit_9831@yahoo.com Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 2/17/2006 11:02 PM AMARDEEP

Dear Kulveer,
It is wrong to say that sikh gurus fought against muslims, they were never against Islam. Infact sikhism is basically fusion of two religions hinduism and islam.many muslims were ragis in gurdwaras before partition.Guru Nanak Dev ji's main companion was a muslim. foundation of Golden Temple was laid by a muslim. most of the punjabi muslims who visit india from pakistan pay there obeisance at Golden Temple and also in Gurdwaras of Pakistan.
Sikh Gurus fought against tyrannical Mughals And not against common muslims. Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/20/2005 1:05 PM Kulveer Singh

Dear skj, 

The story of the marauding Afghan raiders and the guerilla attacks by Sikhs on their camps is well documented history. It is for everybody to read in various books on Sikh History, especially the ones by Cunnigham, Khushwant Singh, Prf. Mohan Singh etc. I couldnt find an e-version of these books to give a link on this blog. 

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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/19/2005 12:35 AM Kaushik

Hi Kulveer,
This was a very good response from you. Thanks. Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/18/2005 2:23 PM skj

hey guys,
its sad if the story is correct. Hey writer, can u prove it anyhow, i m interested to know about it...... help me to help my mind to think good an force other peoples mind to think good and etc. etc.etc. 

Also, i m thinking something otherwise, fun should not end. So, just gimme the answer and authenticity and I will change the meaning of "12 Baj Gaye" towards some menaingful purpose and this way fun wont finish and at the same time, the sentiments too wont hurt. 

i m waitin.
thnks & best regadrs,
skj Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/18/2005 11:05 AM Kulveer Singh

Dear Kaushik, 

I have removed the comment of Proud Surdie, because I dont want this blog to be a banner for propagating stereotypical views about other communities, and superiority of one's own. 

And nothing that I say on this topic is just a personal outburst, it is meant to represent the hurt experienced by most Sikhs and their children. 

I dont want personal respect from anyone because of the valiant history of the Sikhs and their gurus; I have enough achievements in my career to expect it naturally. But can I expect fellow Indians (not eveybody is as mature as you) to stop making fun of the way of life we Sikhs live and enjoy. 

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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/18/2005 2:05 AM Kaushik

Well proud surdie, if sikhs are not hindus, then who is a hindu? the tamilian brahmin is more different from a punjabi brahmin than a sikh is. the assamese is so different from a marathi that all of us can claim to be from a different religion.
and hardly any one follows vedic hinduism. So, according to you, nobody should be a hindu in india. Sad that you have not understood the founders of your panth.
Kulveer, When the children laughed at you with barah baj gae, you should have told them the history which they would have told their stupid ignorant parents and that would have put some gyan into the world and the thing would eventually stop.
I don't think anybody would point to your father and make a joke unless he is close to your father. Otherwise, that guy would be a cheapo and the other people present should shun that guy.
Add to the solution, pal, not the problem.
And while I do respect sikhism and sikhs immensely, it is my personal experience that paanch ungleeyaan baraabar naheen hoteen. I have seen a few very bad sikhs who should be ashamed of calling themselves sikhs. So, it is just a matter of your experience. Or do you want respect just because your forefathers were valiant soldiers? Then, aren't you propagating a hereditary caste-system which is against the principle of your religion? 

Why cannot you be an individual first? In India, individuals are respected, be it manmohan singh (although i don't like the fact that he is in congress) or gulzar, and not communities. In India, communities, just liek labour unions, are a means to create nuisance. So, it is my request, please be a respectable human being and stop crying. people will respect you. otherwise, Indians have so many things to worry about like rozee rotee that respect is actually quite far down the menu. You should be happy that in spite of calls for khalistan and the violence of terrorism, Indians still respect sikhs. In spite of their colluding with unforgivable enemy pakistan and using the temple to further the cause of terrorism (something we despise muslims for), Sikhs are the only community respected as a community.
My own very personal case - If I wanted to be personal, I could be very personal, too - I had a sikh girlfriend and wanted to marry her but her parents broke our relationship on the ground that i am from a bengali family (I was born and brought up in Bihar and do not particularly like bengalis for various reasons). Apparently, the bengali 'RELIGION' was not acceptable to them. What do you say to this informativeness level of an educated sikh family? So, should I disrespect sikhs because of that one family? Surprisingly, I still cannot get myself to disrespect that family itself. In spite of all the hurt that they caused me, I still prefer going to a gurudwara. I still defend sikhs and sikhism.
Learn (seekh), man. Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/17/2005 10:42 AM Kulveer Singh

Dear Amar and Samir, 

I guess the very fact the Sikh history is just a 'footnote' in the history being taught in schools contributes much to the ignorance in the masses about the fact that Sikhs were a major force in finishing off the Mughals after Aurangzeb. Almost equal to, or even more than the Marathas. They were the first to close the gates of invasion into India, from Afghanistan. They even took the war into Afghanistan, into the heartland of the invaders. How many know the story of the Kohinoor being won back from the Afghans. 

Cunnigham's book is a great source of information, written in about 1860, just about the time when the Sikhs had just been won over by the British Empire. In that sense, the books by Khushwant Singh, and Prof. Mohan Singh are really a treasure house of information on the Sikh People and provide more perspective. 

But Hey Amar, and Samir; Is anybody REALLY interested in learning more about the Sikhs? Only if they have the time to slip out of their ignorant cocoons of thoughts, where all Sikhs are supposed to be 'morons' Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/17/2005 10:42 AM BCBoy

Thanks Kulveer Singh jee to tell the reality. It would be so kind of all of you if u spread this message in your friend , social and family circle. 

Regards 

BCBoy
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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/17/2005 10:33 AM Kulveer Singh

Dear Kaushik, 

Well, well, well..... I agree with most of the things that you say; and in a different frame of mind I would even have said the same things... This is what truth is about; it is never black and white, it is always grey and all the colours in between, "Vibgyor" as they say. 

As Gandhiji said, "Only fools and Dead men dont change their minds"; so I wish that you try to see some of the truths across the line of your thoughts. 

Firstly, it is true about what you say about 'showbiz' in religions and sects. Sikhism is a victim of the same showbiz, something that is totally against the teachings of Guru Nanak and the other Gurus. But that is a call for a reform movement within the Sikhs, a much broader issue. 

Secondly, about the Sikhs protecting their 'own' against the Muslims; true again. NObody was doing any 'ehsaan' during those days. But then how many of the Hindus remember or appreciate the valiant fights that the Sikh guerillas fought for centuries. Why is there only one page on the SIkh Empire of Ranjeet Singh, while there are chapters on the resurgence of the Marathas, when both were complementing each other during that crucial phase of hitory. 

This brings me to the basic question; if Sikhs are YOUR own, then, why is the Sikh made to feel like a Moron in public, and why do you have "Sardar joke" sections in reputed portals. You say that this is only about Santa or Banta, and not about all Sikhs. If all the Sardar jokes were on Santa and Banta, I wouldnt have been here, trying to touch people.... This is where I differ completetly, absolutely. You have to imagine yourself on the OTHER side of the table for a moment. 

Imagine that you are in a meeting with colleagues when you argue a point to which they have no reply; and then one of them gets up and looks at the clock and says 'barah baj gaye', and the arguement is settled against you!... 

Imagine that you are in a marriage party with your parents and friends having your food, when a complete stranger joins the group and says, pointing to your father - wah, saat aadmi or ek sardar!!..... 

Imagine when your child is in a class of 50, and then the teacher starts a joke session. One child gets up and tells Sardar jokes.. the teacher laughs with the other children and your child is crying because somebody just told him that "sardarji ki judi mein barah ande, ek anda phoot gaya to kitne bache.."........ 

Imagine that your sister comes home crying because some guy in her class just threw a snide remark against her.. 

And then Imagine that you are not only expected to listen to such jokes, but you are also expected to appreciate and laugh at such situations.... 

Sindhu, or Hindu, I dont mind being called a Hindu, I have read all the Vedas, the Mahabharatas, and the Gita, and I am proud to be a decendant of this heritage. But then, I hope my brothers and sisters across other sects of Hinduism appreciate my concern at being targeted as a 'different' species, without the normal human emotions of 'pain'
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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/17/2005 1:10 AM Kaushik

Hi,
Thanks for the info. It was helpful. I do not make fun of sikhs but I do like Sikh jokes and share them whole heartedly with my sikh friends (Who also like it). Actually, jokes are more or less the same. The English make fun of the Scottish, the Yankees make fun of the texans (You might have heard of Dubya (Bush) jokes - he's a texan. The tamilians make fun of mallus. The kannadigas make fun of tamilians.. and sikhs themselves make fun of Biharis and south indians ... Yes, I am a bihari but have respect for sikhism. In fact, I go to the Gurudwara and not temples - just my way. I have respect for Hinduism as well. In fact, I do not see much difference between Sikhism and Hinduism - the teachings are all the same. 

And that is where, I differ from your article. The guru did not take the torture to protect people of some 'other' religion. He was protecting his own people. Firstly, sikhism was not a different religion then. Secondly, it is still not a different religion. Only the appearance is different. 

A religion is based on core values and not external appearance and sikhs should understand this more than others because Guru Nanak was dead against showbiz in religion. He did not say - make a religion in my name. He questioned the prevalent practices in Hinduism, quite rightly, and the blind beliefs that were beginning to come into 'religion'. Buddha and Jina (Mahavira) did the same but alas, most of their followers have made a mockery of these great men by introducing their own set of showbiz. This includes Sikhism. Sikhism, Jainism and Buddhism are not different religions because their core is the same. The teachings can all be found in the ancient hindu books. Jains have been the most assimilating and you cannot make them out except for their surname 'Jain'. However, Buddhists and even sikhs, many of them, foolishly believe that their religious identity lies in shunning hinduism. 

Just a piece of information. The word 'Hindu' has come form the word 'Sindhu' - It is how Arabians would pronounce Sindhu. The word denoted the people on 'this' side of the Indus river (indus itself is the English version of the word Sindhu and that is also where the word India has come from). Previously, India was known as Bhaaratawarsha. Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/17/2005 12:21 AM Simer

First of all, i aint a scholar nor am i a true sikh *have to say the truth, I m a cut surd sikh from delhi itself currently in UK, Well i hve been reading this book from J.D. Cunningham titled " History of the sikhs" which is first published in 1849, depicts sum reality of sikhs lives n wht they did if there is n e one interested in knowin much, dis is da book, os there is a very goond one from surjit singh gandhi titled "sikhs in the eighteenth century" which depicts realities, n realises u of the importance n authenticity of whtever u wanna noe abt sikhism. 

well makin fun is good but ppl who made fun mst see how other feels, sometimes doing it intentionally is really not fruitful.. 

Simer_mayo@yahoo.co.uk Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 8/16/2005 9:14 PM Amar

Only if one reads two large volumes of "A History of Sikhs" written by Khushwant Singh with tremendous research on publications of British, Mughal and Indian writers, the role of Sikhs become apparent and relaisation of sikh's contributions in shaping Indian History. It is unfortunate that the sikh history including greater Punjab of pre-British India and Maharajah Ranjeet Singh has been totally omitted by Indian writers including Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru in his famous book, History of India and the school text books and all key publications.
The sikhs are also to be blamed for not advocating the role they played and living on past glories. The injustice done to sikhs from the beginning including derogatory remarks as 'Barah baj gaye' and 'sikh jokes' bears the testimony to the tragedy of sikhs The saviours of Hindu religion became the baits and object of humiliation as is evident from Nanavati commission article.
Nevertheless, the sikhs don't look back and continue to be a force to reckon with and possibly people of India will realise their error some day. I highly recommend to all to read Khushwant Singh's book and find out for themselves, what I say.
Sare Jahan Se Acchha Hinbdustan Hamara Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/27/2005 2:46 PM amita

i have an answer for u in my blog ..chk it Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/27/2005 5:45 AM Plato

One Piece of History that one cannot deny is of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. He gave his Head for protection of Kashmiri pandits at Chandni Chowk Delhi. Sis Ganj Gurudwara is located at the place where Guruji was executed on Aurangzeb's order. Guru Gobind Sing Ji and his four sons along with thousands of Sikhs sacrificed themselves for whom. What were they fighting for. Has anybody given thought to this before makin fun of sikhs. 

There are stories from history of bravery unparalled. Of Bloodiest battles. Few hundred against and army of thousands, not once but over and over again, in many battles fought over the land of five rivers. 

People of India should read this history at least once. This history which is not part of school books but history nevertheless.
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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/27/2005 5:22 AM Plato

The area of operation of sikhs extended from plains of Ganga to the afganistan, and most of these might have attacks taken place in area which was in pre-partition india. 

Mates for more information read history of sikhs, even many british, french and other european people have written books and their own experiences with Sikhs of that Era. 

Read about Hari Singh Nalwa, Banda Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh JI. This hostiry is only 300 years old. This is around 1650 AD to 1850 AD. To be more specific 1700-1800 AD. Times of Amed Shah Abdali who defeated Marathas in 3rd battle of Panipat thus paving way for Britrish to rule a Weak and Divided India at that time. 

This is after the East India Company, Vasco de Gama etc. These are not pre-historic times or 1000 B.C. where we can doubt about the authenticity. 

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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/27/2005 2:37 AM CoolCat

Wow!! 

Oh praji, maaf karde.... maine eis tarah di gul kisi de nal nai kiththi hai.. and I wont do it either.. haan bachpan mein kiya tha.. but after I heard this story (long ago from another sardarji friend of mine) I stopped... not because u saved the hindus, but I felt it is not proper way to treat someone, one human to another..
But lemme tell ya this.. u dont have to take this so seriously... ppl make fun of all mallus (I am a malayalee), my english aint bad at all, but when I see ppl making fun of their accent, sometimes u feel it.. but then chaltha hai yaar.. zindagi hai, maze sey kato... kya kehthe ho?? 

-CC Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/26/2005 6:35 PM sayan331

WOW...this has been an interesting read !! Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/26/2005 12:32 PM xxx

amita this is true. Remove Comment

# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/26/2005 12:17 PM amita

Can u tell me how authentic is the history u have recited here ??
A trusted web link shud help :D 

I dont think nyone shud tease nyone with such silly things ..But yeah i have seen these anecdotes taking place ... 

If what u say is true then well it can stop this fun session going on :)
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# re: The history of "Barah Baj Gaye" 5/26/2005 12:16 PM mansi_delhi81

after reading ur post - i sincerely realised my mistake - i m really sorry for hurting the feelings of sikh community.
and Thanks for your community's support in the society :-) Remove Comment